Trevor Wittman Interview Part 1
Content Provided by: Mark D. Kilburn ringwrap56@gmail.com
What a pleasure it was to listen to Trevor Wittman honestly discuss his career and fight philosophies in depth and detail with me over the past several weeks. Trevor neither hides nor obscures the reasons for a successful career, working with, teaching, and coaching, some of today’s best fighters, and winning several world championship belts along the way. This interview is a must read for anyone who aspires to become a trainer/coach someday. Trevor lays out everything you need to know to become not just a good trainer but a great one.
Trevor, who prefers to be called T., is one of the top two or three fight trainers around, and is routinely mentioned alongside Freddie Roach as one of the best trainers in the world. T. began Grudge Gym out of his basement in 97, along with Jake Ramos, and from those humble beginnings it has grown into a fighter factory of excellence, all that in just sixteen years.
‘It ain’t bragging if it’s true,’ is an old clichéd term that’s been around for centuries; it’s appropriate here once you realize that Grudge brags a win rate that is rather difficult to believe, it is over ninety percent. Unbelievable and ridiculous! Nine out of ten times Grudge fighters have come out on top, and for the last sixteen years! If I were a young fighter this is the gym I’d want to train in. (Full disclosure; I am a young fighter and I am training at Grudge.)
T. is married to Christina, he credits Christina for changing him as well as his entire life, and very much for the better. She plays a huge part at Grudge, keeping the front office in ship shape, signing up new members and raising Marissa, their beautiful 5 yr. old daughter. She is a surrogate mother to the majority of Grudge fighters as well, offering support, kindness and hugs, whatever is needed. She’s seen so many of us battling through our worst moments and is always ready to help. She’s one of those rare people who possess huge hearts and care deeply about all suffering souls, animals included, for she is an animal advocate as well. T. and Grudge gym are both very lucky to have her!
The coaches, T. and Christina, all put in unbelievably long hours at Grudge each week and their hard work has paid off with a truly great gym, great trainers, and new location that’s easy to find, one block north of I-76 and Sheridan Ave. on the northwest corner of 59th & Sheridan. They offer a huge variety of workout plans and classes, catering to everyone, male or female regardless of skill level, even if it’s zero. In fact there are more females joining every day, old and young alike, as well as classes and teachers ready to work with total novices, amateurs, all the way up to top of the line pro fighters. They work with people for specific things like weight loss or anger management as well. Grudge is for everyone, not just fighters, or want to be fighters, and the benefits can sound like testimonies. We will hear more of these stories in parts 2 & 3. of the interview. I can testify to how comfortable Grudge gym is to step into for the first time. I’ve always found it to be more inclusive than any other place I’ve ever been. I’ve been working with Jake for 15 months, starting as a total novice with zero experience and have felt totally at home from day one. The positivity vibe is real and almost palpable, that and the work ethic on constant display make the Grudge workout a cut above all others.
Trevor also has a son Terrance, who is 15 years old and prefers the Lacrosse pitch to the fight gym, T. encourages Terrance to be the best soccer player he can be without trying to force him into fighting.
I spoke with T. twice last week and sat in awe listening to his many captivating stories and philosophies about fighters and trainers, he did not hold back and shares his knowledge and experience with anyone who asks. Here’s what T. had to say-
Mk-When did you begin training fighters?
TW-I began training fighters in late 97, early 98. Jake and I started out of the basement of my house on Tower rd. and Smoky Hill, we met in Art School back in 94, and went back east to New Jersey on a whim for six months, where we became surfing beach bums. We lived in the car for a few days before landing a landscaping job. Eventually we rented a little beach cottage in Seaside Heights, staying for six months and having a total blast there.
Mk-For anyone who doesn’t know Trevor, I wanted to say that throughout my interviews with him he always had a huge smile on his face. He smiles all the time and I’ve wondered many times if he might be the happiest person in the world. He had no problem talking about seeing a counselor while going through a divorce many years ago. He goes into great depth on how she helped him make his career choice as well and I thought young fighters who read this should take note. Here is a genuine tough guy who had no trouble at all seeking help and advice when he needed it. We should all be so smart! Here’s what he said about it:
TW-I’d seen a marriage counselor while going through my divorce and continued to see her right after it as well, she gave me some great career advice after I got hurt and couldn’t fight anymore. The absolute worst part of my job is telling a fighter he cannot fight anymore and it is usually due to injury. I loved fighting and wasn’t ready to quit, but after my injury I had no choice; she asked if I could be a promoter or coach or train, well I did not want to be a promoter or a manager so I picked up a pair of focus gloves and thought to myself, I can do this.
I am a really giving person and at that point I wanted to give something back to boxing and I remember her saying to me, “Do something you really enjoy, don’t worry about the money. If you do something you love it will turn into something great!”
It was great advice and I’ve never forgotten it.
I asked T. to retell the infamous greasy popcorn story here and he obliged.
TW-The greasy popcorn story, when I began my fight training in Connecticut, my trainer was an overweight, mean, cold, old school coach, who tried so hard to motivate me through negativity and humiliation. The gym was this cold concrete building that was dark and dusty, each day he’d push himself around on a wheelie chair and cook bags of greasy, buttery, instant popcorn, that was so gross. I’d be training and I’d be overcome with nausea from this stinky greasy popcorn odor. The entire gym reeked of fake butter and almost made me sick. To this day I can’t stand that crap.
Mk-Lucky you T., that crap is terrible for you.
TW-It is horrible for you, good stuff to avoid for sure!
I’d be working out on the heavy bag and he’d be yelling at me, “You are horrible; you will never make it as a fighter, you hit like a little girl! You won’t amount to shit”
Looking back I can’t believe I put up with it but I do remember telling myself if I ever coach someday, I will do the exact opposite of this guy. He was so negative all the time, I could dominate any round of my fight and he’d say “You are getting killed out there.”
It didn’t matter how far ahead I was in the fight, it was the old school way of humiliation and trying to inspire someone by pissing them off! I always thought that fighters must really love what they do to put up with people like that, all that guff. I realized how much passion fighters possess.
Mk-Can you talk for a little bit about what the differences are between good trainers and great trainers, and we are lumping MMA and boxing together here.
TW-Mark, there are tons of good coaches out there and they come a dime a dozen, you only need to know what moves counter what other moves. Add some basics, conditioning, a few fundamentals, and you have a decent to good coach. If you study enough fights you will see what counters what, good coaches can always talk a good fight strategy, I hear football fans talking strategy and some really do know enough to go out and teach peewee’s and so forth. They have enough basic knowledge that they could teach fundamental plays, basic counter plays, and whatever techniques are needed. They could easily become good coaches, but to be a great coach you have to do more than just tell or delegate. You have to be able to show them precisely how it is done and not just tell them to go do it.
Example: I used to have a coach who would always ride me about stepping to my left, but each time I stepped left I got hammered with a right hand. I’d come back to my corner and he’d be yelling at me, “Step to the left.”
I’d do it, step left and get smacked over and over again with the right hand. It wasn’t until I saw other fighters stepping left and not getting hit before I figured it out. They were getting their head outside their shoulder when they stepped left and that made all the difference in the world. If I’d had a great coach he’d have shown me exactly how to do it and not just said “Do it.”
Fighters are always going to have questions and they need answers that SHOW them how. A great trainer will never say it, they’ll believe it, and they’ll show it and not just say it.
Mk-I see that exact thing working with Jake all the time. He always takes his time showing me exactly where my feet should be and how to get them there, then what punches and combinations I should be throwing from said position. He shows me the entire movement from start to finish and then shows me how to practice that movement.
TW-Exactly! Jake is really good at it. Now he is teaching and showing, not simply telling. He’s so good at explaining it for you and you will never hear, just do it. I learn something from Jake nearly every day.
TW-Another thing that separates the good from the great is that the great ones are very artistic. What I mean by artistic is that so often when we get fighters signing up with us, they’ve been fighting for many years. They don’t need us to teach them or even re-teach them as much as they need polishing. We may take their ‘four go to moves’ and cut back to just ‘two go to moves,’ but we want those two moves to be nearly perfect. Little things here and there as opposed to total makeovers, a minor adjustment to their footwork or stance; often times we like to get back to basics. The question is always the same, how to sculpt your guy to be the best possible fighter he can be.
Figuring out what type of fighter you have can also be a means of separating the good from the great. What motivates him, what makes him mad? Does he need his confidence built up, or is he overconfident? You can never know enough about your fighter, each one is different but your job is to know exactly what makes them tick and what words illicit what response. I’ve lived with so many of my fighters and often found that this was the best way to learn all these little things, so that whatever I am faced with in the ring I will have a well stocked arsenal to cause the particular reaction I need.
Fight psychology is important as well. If you are able to get your fighter to the right mental state he becomes extremely difficult to beat, making the mental part of fighting another place where good is separated from great. When both fighters are equal it’s mentality that will prove to be the difference.
Example: I remember watching a Ugandan fighter years ago who was fighting some club fighter. The Ugandan was undefeated at the time while the club fighter was like 15-5; surprisingly the club fighter knocked the Ugandan down, then out, and after the fight the press was rabidly asking the Ugandan about getting knocked down for the first time in his career and what that was like. The Ugandan was adamantly disputing the statement, reiterating over and over again that he was never knocked down. He never did admit it and what I realized was that he may have lost this fight but no one had taken his dream of being a champion away. He’d not been dissuaded. I always remembered that.
Same with Ali, once, and I forget who he fought but he lost by decision after 15 rounds, and when the press forced the issue by beleaguering the point of Ali losing, he responded with, “I lost the bout but I won the fight, go ask him. (pointing towards the winner) I was whipping his ass the last three rounds and he wouldn’t fight, kept running away. If I fought him 30 times I’d win 29, this was just his one win.”
When they can no longer have their spirit broken or taken away, when they don’t fear losing the occasional bout-Losing can be the best thing for them, you learn so much more from losing a fight than from winning one; when you keep their slipups small ones and don’t let them fall off in the deep end, that’s the difference between good and great! It all comes back to passion, if you have passion, if you apply yourself one-hundred percent to everything you do you will adapt to whatever you need to adapt to.
I still believe good coaches are ubiquitous, they’re everywhere, anybody can draw a play on the board and tell folks what to do and even how to do it. Great ones are true teachers that show how, not tell how, and those types of coaches are very rare. If you can make someone believe, truly believe he’s number one in the world, well that belief will separate him from the other fighters just like it will separate you from other trainers. It certainly is harder than it sounds. Anytime a fighter doesn’t trust or believe in his trainer it’s a little tough for him to believe in himself.
I think part of the reason for my good people skills is that we moved around often when I was a kid. My father was in charge of the grand opening of all the Home Depot stores around the country so we moved every couple years and I lost all my friends. Every other year or so I had to make new ones and I think no matter how bad it sucked at the time, this forced me to learn how to make friends, how to get people to trust me. That all carries over to everyday.
I had a teacher in high school, Mr. Day and he made a huge impression on me and was probably the biggest reason I was able to turn my life around. I had been told continually how I was a bad kid and would never amount to anything. I figured if I’m bad I might as well be really bad and I was. I came to his class one day and he said to me, “Trevor, why would you be late to my class when you’ve been doing so well lately?”
I thought to myself, ‘I’m doing well at something?’
He was always like that and each time he’d offer his critique he’d start by offering me a huge compliment before saying something like, “You know you are better than that.” Or, “I know you can do better.” I’ve never forgotten Mr. Day and now I find myself emulating his positivity each time I talk to fighters. Mr. Day is now in charge of the entire athletic department for that high school and I will never forget him. Once I became a coach I incorporated all of his methods into my routines. I always tell my fighters something they do very well before I’ll mention something that needs improvement and it all goes back to Mr. Day. I’ve had that negative trainer and I ended up hating him more than any fighter I ever faced. When you don’t trust your trainer it is a very bad way to fight and no fighter should have to put up with that kind of abuse.
Something else I believe in is treating fighters like family, that’s why I’ve had so many fighters move in with me. If you fight fighters the way people fight chickens or dogs you won’t be around long. Keeping the fighter calm is important as well, if you get panicky or too hyped up so will he. Try to always speak in a calm, but level voice; and like I said earlier, the more you know your fighter the better off you’ll both be. Fights fly by and you only get that one short chance when you’re in there, so the more you know about your fighter the better you will be able to deal with whatever the fight throws at you. Never panic, remain calm and then instill that same calmness with your fighter and you’ll do fine. Knowing when to give that Rocky type speech is all important as well.
Example: The Shane Carwin – Dos Santos fight
TW-I had worked with Shane a number of years and could almost read his thoughts from watching his facial features. Shane had been badly beaten in the first round by Dos Santos and when he came to his corner he had this look on his face that said, ‘I have a wife, home, child, good job, what the hell do I need this for?’
I knew I had to come up with something very inspirational and do it quickly or this fight was over. I made sure to whisper as I didn’t want anyone else overhearing. I simply told him, “Your opponent has just broken into your house and is threatening harm to your family, now what are you going to do about it?”
Shane came out and fought the kind of fight movies are made from. He took kicks to the head and waved the crowd on like he never felt them. He took a beating as well as gave a beating and in the end he nearly won by tap out, just as the time ran out. The crowd was going crazy, screaming for Shane, he won every fan over that night and I have never been more proud of a fighter than I was then. The point is whatever speech you are going to give at that crucial time to resurrect your fighter, better be the one that motivates him to do things that seem impossible. If you know your fighter inside and out, you will be able to say the right words at the right time. That may have been the best fight I’ve ever seen. No matter what happens, stay positive.
I told Shane afterwards, when he was all beat up and battered that he saved lives that night by showing the world and all the people in it who don’t think they can conquer something, that yes, the impossible is possible and things that seem unconquerable can, with enough hard work, be conquered. That by sheer will and determination humans can achieve the impossible and that’s what he did on that night!
I always tell my fighters what they’re doing right before I say what’s wrong. I’ll tell them, “I love your jab, it’s beautiful, keep throwing it but quit being lazy with it, snap it the way I know you can!” When they are told in this manner they don’t get all down and quit throwing it, instead they come out and start snapping jabs off the way I wanted them to from the beginning. Stay positive at all times, I believe negativity is not only the enemy, it’s to be feared and avoided at all times.
Winning is so fun and losing is so painful but when you lose you find out your true friends are and guys who fight for the wrong reasons, money, fame, chicks, fall away pretty quickly while the guys who fight for themselves, their families and coaches, usually last a long time. When you are winning you get free meals and everyone wants your autograph, lose once and it can all go away. The hardest parts of boxing are what makes great coaches and fighters, overcoming challenge after challenge. I have learned so much from watching Jake Ramos work as well as my other coaches. It’s all about doing the work.
Coaches and fighters are both so woefully underpaid I can’t believe it, yet they still have so much passion for the sport. The work ethic here is off the charts and if I have either a fighter or a coach who get an offer for better money I let them go immediately. They will be welcomed back anytime or whenever that gig runs out. We’ve had that happen many times. I am a believer in a handshake and a man’s word but anytime one of my guys has a chance to earn more money I make sure they go. It’s these coaches and fighters who are so underpaid yet who work so hard and such long hours who make the sport of boxing and MMA the great sports they are today. The vast majority of pro fighters work full time jobs, some work two full time jobs! These guys are all great people and when you work closely with such great people it can’t help but wear off on you.
Money is no motivator, these guys work so hard for so little that it’s simply passion. Sure, there are a couple boxing millionaires out there but that’s more like hitting the lottery than real life. The vast majority will never see anything close to millions of dollars. Here at Grudge we specialize in positive fighters and ask the negative types to move along to another gym, regardless of how talented they may be.
Mk-I’ve noticed in my time here that the Grudge work ethic is definitely intense and contagious, I can also see that it starts at the top and is passed around from coach to fighter. All Grudge employees have a great work ethic and positive attitude as well.
TW-Work ethic is everything, if you don’t want to work harder at this than anything else you’ve ever tried before, you will likely fail. The great thing about MMA, Ju Jitsu, boxing, and wrestling is that they are so fun you quickly forget about the hard work. Almost immediately you will find yourself looking forward to your next workout, I guarantee it!
Mk-Thanks so much for speaking with me today T. and we will finish up this interview in a few days.
This concludes part one of our interview, part two will be posted next week. As always send comments and questions to: ringwrap56@gmail.com, thanks for reading, Mark D. Kilburn